I’m interested to know if you think the Knights Templar were guilty as charged? They were accused of heresy and sodomy - two of the worse things you could be accused of in the medieval world. But were these trumped up charges or do you think - no smoke without fire?
Sorry to change the subject. When I moved to the North East 27 years ago I visited a local abbey whilst exploring the area. At it's centre was an open tomb with an internal slab depicting the Knights Templar. Alongside were about 20 ground slabs depicting various engravings including weapons. The standard in the tomb has since disappeared. I know that the Knights Templar may have visited the North East of England and so my curiosity has been whetted. I would enjoy hearing your thoughts.
Alison - If you mean Northumbria, then I believe the Templars had "preceptories" (estates) at West Thornton, Healey and Fenham. They also had a presence near Pinchinthorpe but I don't know that much about it. They definitely had a presence in Yorkshire. There's a stately home near Leeds called Temple Newsam built centuries later under the Tudors but I believe somewhere under the ground you'd find Templar remains. So, they were all set up in the north east for certain and the first Grand Master toured all the way through England and into Scotland. Hope that helps! Tony
Thank you Tony. This is at Eggleston Abbey (once occupied by "the white monks") on the outskirts of Barnard Castle, Co. Durham. I thought it strange that there were so many graves here. Also, I can't think of a reason why the principle slab should be removed. It's worth a visit.
It really is! Barnard Castle is about 20 miles away from Durham and even more gorgeous. Give me a shout if you ever do visit the Abbey and I can point out where I have seen things.
Trumped up charges, I agree. A cover-up from beginning to end by the papacy. I think the treasure will be found before the real reason why they were condemned! Yes, possibly heretical beliefs. In addition, they may have been preparing to set up an independent state, perhaps part of Le Dauphiné, Cyprus having become "a terra ingrata" for them.
And the south of France was still not fully under the control of the King of France - so maybe the Templars thought they could set up a kingdom there. And of course the Cathar heresy had been rampant in the south of France.
Innocent. Philip owed huge sums to the Templars, so had motive to destroy them. Confessions were given only under torture, later recanted. de Molay and de Charney were burned for recanting rather than committing what they considered a betrayal of the order. Templars were not found guilty in England until pressure was exerted by the Papacy and Papal inquisitioners used torture. The Templars were acquitted in Cyprus. In spite of this they were ordered imprisoned by the Pope and their possessions seized. In Spain and Portugal, no evidence of the accusations was found.
And what is fascinating in Portugal is that King Denis basically took them over and re-fashioned the Templars as the Order of Christ. They more or less continued but under his direct control.
I think there were so many religions in the Holy Land at that time it is probable they practiced Paganism. I do not believe they acquired any Jewish religious items. I also doubt if banking was their real business. In my opinion, their wealth may have been related to the smuggling of humans. So, yes, I believe any army, including The Templars, capable of despicable acts on their conquered population & to think otherwise is a simplistic and Pollyanna view of the order. They were hard men living in hard times.
I found some unexpected ancestors in my family tree. (For several generations) I don't love this conversation personally as content, but as historical content, it is terrific!. There are a lot of empty holes to chase down related to the Templars. 😂
Many people romanticize what the Templars' role was to history. Today they would be labeled a terrorist group with their alleged actions at Solomons Temple, similar to what Isis did in Syria to historically significant ruins just a few years ago. Hard men hard times.
My suspicions stem partly from how The Templars near the peak of their influence, gave in And sacrificed a few brothers, all to a corrupt Pope and King. Though what Pope and King are not corrupt? (Their quick exit from history is an anomaly and unusual vs Hospitallers and other brotherhoods) The Templar ships have not been accounted for unless they eventually find them in the harbor at Acre or even possibly Oak Island? 😂😂
A healthy dose of skepticism & authority figures made its way down through the Family Tree too. Thanks, Tony. I enjoy your willingness to share knowledge. Knowledge is truly priceless, and the exchange of knowledge is the real treasure of life.🙇🙇 Stan
Stan - Thanks for sharing that. Yes, the Templar ships that departed the port of La Rochelle - or not, according to some people. I'm going to share all the theories about them going up to Scotland, down to Portugal and over to America! So - stay tuned. It's going to be a bumpy historical ride :)
There are family members who are of Portuguese descent in our tree. I don't know if that is a modern-day coupling or a more profound connection? The only thing I am sure of in my research? My direct ancestor entered Virginia in 1700 from Aberdeen and I am of the 7th generation of his arrival. I have found Some of these connections are as clear as mud. For instance, I believe
He was definitely a weak pope - Clement - unlike his predecessor Boniface VIII who did stand up to the King of France but got physically beaten up and died soon afterwards. I guess Clement remembered that and decided he preferred an easy life.
Along w/ Richard’s earlier note re: P IV and combined w/ the similar allegations the Vatican used to squash many ‘heritic’ forms of early Christianity, it is highly unlikely that the Templars were as criminal as they were accused of being. Then why would the Templars confess these sins? It is difficult for any of us to realize what we will do or say when given over to true acts of torture. Everyone has a breaking point.
I think it was Shakespeare who said men will declare anything on the rack. There were stories of them having their feet burned to such an extent that their toes dropped off. Think I'd say anything before that happened. I'm going to post more about heresy soon so watch out for that!
Ahmed - I think you're right there. The king must have been very nervous to have a large band of armed warriors on his soil. And yes, some believe they were out to create their own state within what would become the kingdom of France.
It does look like that. Because Philip had previously gone after the Jewish community, the church and the merchants trying to get their money. There is a story that he holed up in the Paris Templar HQ during a riot in the city and saw how much money they had and thought - yep, I'll have some of that.
King of France was afraid of them especially after the Teutonic knights had have their own state. Moreover they acquired incredible knowledge from staying in the east.
I believe as many that the main reason they were suppressed was two fold, they were extremely wealthy and with the crusades over, they outlived their usefulness. This is the main reason for their downfall. I believe that living in a society where men are only allowed close relations with other men for life would adversely effect them. Along with the fact that even though same sex relations was outlawed, living in a closed society made it easier for men that were so inclined to give in to their desires. The knights lived in the middle east for many years and it would be understandable for them to be accustomed to their beliefs and customs. So I believe that under the norms of the 1300's they were guilty of both. I don't believe they would have been crushed if they hadn't outlived their usefulness.
Mark - Thanks for that. I did blog about whether the Knights Templar were LGBT or not - and how that might have played out in the Middle Ages, given different attitudes. During the trials, specific allegations were made and I've listed some of them on my Templar blog: https://thetemplarknight.com/2011/03/06/templars-gay/
Just for the record, I don't believe that the Templars were as a whole LGBT. There was bound to be a small percentage that were so there could be some correlation to the accusations. But as an ex-Mason, I've heard many lurid claims posed against the lodge and know many to be false which goes hand and hand with being a secret organization. Having a working knowledge of Masonic practices and what I understand about the Templars, their are too many similarities for their not to be a connection between the Templars and Masonic Lodge.
The Templars protected and promoted the spiritual information they learned from the ancient mystery, hermetic and kabbalistic traditions. They also had physical information that could/would have put the Standard Orthodox Church out of business. Of course the Church tried to assassinate their characters.
It is odd that the Knights Hospitaller - who existed at the same time - weren't subject to the same treatment. In fact, they got their hands on a lot of the Templar property. So you do have to wonder, what did the Templars know?
Sorry to change the subject. When I moved to the North East 27 years ago I visited a local abbey whilst exploring the area. At it's centre was an open tomb with an internal slab depicting the Knights Templar. Alongside were about 20 ground slabs depicting various engravings including weapons. The standard in the tomb has since disappeared. I know that the Knights Templar may have visited the North East of England and so my curiosity has been whetted. I would enjoy hearing your thoughts.
Alison - If you mean Northumbria, then I believe the Templars had "preceptories" (estates) at West Thornton, Healey and Fenham. They also had a presence near Pinchinthorpe but I don't know that much about it. They definitely had a presence in Yorkshire. There's a stately home near Leeds called Temple Newsam built centuries later under the Tudors but I believe somewhere under the ground you'd find Templar remains. So, they were all set up in the north east for certain and the first Grand Master toured all the way through England and into Scotland. Hope that helps! Tony
Thank you Tony. This is at Eggleston Abbey (once occupied by "the white monks") on the outskirts of Barnard Castle, Co. Durham. I thought it strange that there were so many graves here. Also, I can't think of a reason why the principle slab should be removed. It's worth a visit.
I shall have to make my way up there - was in Durham in 2016 - beautiful city!
It really is! Barnard Castle is about 20 miles away from Durham and even more gorgeous. Give me a shout if you ever do visit the Abbey and I can point out where I have seen things.
The Templar where rich in cash. assets and knowledge, these charges against the Templars were trumped up by a broke king and scared Pope.
I tend to agree - the king of France was the main culprit
Trumped up charges, I agree. A cover-up from beginning to end by the papacy. I think the treasure will be found before the real reason why they were condemned! Yes, possibly heretical beliefs. In addition, they may have been preparing to set up an independent state, perhaps part of Le Dauphiné, Cyprus having become "a terra ingrata" for them.
And the south of France was still not fully under the control of the King of France - so maybe the Templars thought they could set up a kingdom there. And of course the Cathar heresy had been rampant in the south of France.
Innocent. Philip owed huge sums to the Templars, so had motive to destroy them. Confessions were given only under torture, later recanted. de Molay and de Charney were burned for recanting rather than committing what they considered a betrayal of the order. Templars were not found guilty in England until pressure was exerted by the Papacy and Papal inquisitioners used torture. The Templars were acquitted in Cyprus. In spite of this they were ordered imprisoned by the Pope and their possessions seized. In Spain and Portugal, no evidence of the accusations was found.
And what is fascinating in Portugal is that King Denis basically took them over and re-fashioned the Templars as the Order of Christ. They more or less continued but under his direct control.
I think there were so many religions in the Holy Land at that time it is probable they practiced Paganism. I do not believe they acquired any Jewish religious items. I also doubt if banking was their real business. In my opinion, their wealth may have been related to the smuggling of humans. So, yes, I believe any army, including The Templars, capable of despicable acts on their conquered population & to think otherwise is a simplistic and Pollyanna view of the order. They were hard men living in hard times.
Now that is an interesting point - I blogged about the Templars and allegations they indulged in slave trading: https://thetemplarknight.com/2011/01/18/templars-slave-trade/
I found some unexpected ancestors in my family tree. (For several generations) I don't love this conversation personally as content, but as historical content, it is terrific!. There are a lot of empty holes to chase down related to the Templars. 😂
Many people romanticize what the Templars' role was to history. Today they would be labeled a terrorist group with their alleged actions at Solomons Temple, similar to what Isis did in Syria to historically significant ruins just a few years ago. Hard men hard times.
My suspicions stem partly from how The Templars near the peak of their influence, gave in And sacrificed a few brothers, all to a corrupt Pope and King. Though what Pope and King are not corrupt? (Their quick exit from history is an anomaly and unusual vs Hospitallers and other brotherhoods) The Templar ships have not been accounted for unless they eventually find them in the harbor at Acre or even possibly Oak Island? 😂😂
A healthy dose of skepticism & authority figures made its way down through the Family Tree too. Thanks, Tony. I enjoy your willingness to share knowledge. Knowledge is truly priceless, and the exchange of knowledge is the real treasure of life.🙇🙇 Stan
Stan - Thanks for sharing that. Yes, the Templar ships that departed the port of La Rochelle - or not, according to some people. I'm going to share all the theories about them going up to Scotland, down to Portugal and over to America! So - stay tuned. It's going to be a bumpy historical ride :)
There are family members who are of Portuguese descent in our tree. I don't know if that is a modern-day coupling or a more profound connection? The only thing I am sure of in my research? My direct ancestor entered Virginia in 1700 from Aberdeen and I am of the 7th generation of his arrival. I have found Some of these connections are as clear as mud. For instance, I believe
my grandfather's aunt was killed at Auschwitz?
I look forward to your discoveries!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vatican-templars/knights-templar-win-heresy-reprieve-after-700-years-idUSL093422320071012
I firmly believe that the charges against the Templars were trumped up by a very jealous and greedy king and similar Pope.
He was definitely a weak pope - Clement - unlike his predecessor Boniface VIII who did stand up to the King of France but got physically beaten up and died soon afterwards. I guess Clement remembered that and decided he preferred an easy life.
Along w/ Richard’s earlier note re: P IV and combined w/ the similar allegations the Vatican used to squash many ‘heritic’ forms of early Christianity, it is highly unlikely that the Templars were as criminal as they were accused of being. Then why would the Templars confess these sins? It is difficult for any of us to realize what we will do or say when given over to true acts of torture. Everyone has a breaking point.
I think it was Shakespeare who said men will declare anything on the rack. There were stories of them having their feet burned to such an extent that their toes dropped off. Think I'd say anything before that happened. I'm going to post more about heresy soon so watch out for that!
Ahmed - I think you're right there. The king must have been very nervous to have a large band of armed warriors on his soil. And yes, some believe they were out to create their own state within what would become the kingdom of France.
They were trumped up charges. That slimebag Philip IV wanted the treasure he thought they had in the Paris Temple.
It does look like that. Because Philip had previously gone after the Jewish community, the church and the merchants trying to get their money. There is a story that he holed up in the Paris Templar HQ during a riot in the city and saw how much money they had and thought - yep, I'll have some of that.
King of France was afraid of them especially after the Teutonic knights had have their own state. Moreover they acquired incredible knowledge from staying in the east.
I believe as many that the main reason they were suppressed was two fold, they were extremely wealthy and with the crusades over, they outlived their usefulness. This is the main reason for their downfall. I believe that living in a society where men are only allowed close relations with other men for life would adversely effect them. Along with the fact that even though same sex relations was outlawed, living in a closed society made it easier for men that were so inclined to give in to their desires. The knights lived in the middle east for many years and it would be understandable for them to be accustomed to their beliefs and customs. So I believe that under the norms of the 1300's they were guilty of both. I don't believe they would have been crushed if they hadn't outlived their usefulness.
Mark - Thanks for that. I did blog about whether the Knights Templar were LGBT or not - and how that might have played out in the Middle Ages, given different attitudes. During the trials, specific allegations were made and I've listed some of them on my Templar blog: https://thetemplarknight.com/2011/03/06/templars-gay/
Just for the record, I don't believe that the Templars were as a whole LGBT. There was bound to be a small percentage that were so there could be some correlation to the accusations. But as an ex-Mason, I've heard many lurid claims posed against the lodge and know many to be false which goes hand and hand with being a secret organization. Having a working knowledge of Masonic practices and what I understand about the Templars, their are too many similarities for their not to be a connection between the Templars and Masonic Lodge.
The Templars protected and promoted the spiritual information they learned from the ancient mystery, hermetic and kabbalistic traditions. They also had physical information that could/would have put the Standard Orthodox Church out of business. Of course the Church tried to assassinate their characters.
It is odd that the Knights Hospitaller - who existed at the same time - weren't subject to the same treatment. In fact, they got their hands on a lot of the Templar property. So you do have to wonder, what did the Templars know?